1 Timothy 4:7 Old Wives fables

Old wives tales, 1 Timothy 4:7: Old Wives fables, babbling or speaking in tongues. This relates to Charismatic worship which imagines that modern out of the mind gibberish is a gift of a "holy" spirit.

Therefore, Jesus taught a very simple prayer. The vital part of prayer is to listen for His whispered silence. Karen Armstrong so so perfectly of 1 Kings 19:

"Unlike the pagan deities, Yahweh was not in any of the forces of nature but in a real apart. He is experienced in the scarcely perceptible timbre of a tiny breeze in the paradox of a voiced silence." (Armstrong, Karen, A History of God, p. 27)

Jesus would say that worship is "in spirit and in truth." The Lord is in His Holy Temple let all of

Paul wrote to Titus:

Since an overseer ("sleepless") is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Titus 1:7NIV

Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. Titus 1:8

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. Titus 1:9

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1 Timothy 3:2

Paul said to the Corinthians that "I would be pleased if all of you could speak in tongues" (languages as a gift) but to the greatest degree" I would like for you to teach because:

Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 1 Corinthians 14:6

If men do not usurp Christ's authority through His Word then women will be less tempted to usurp the role of a very few men allowing her "family" to starve to spiritual death for lack of the word. Job, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Amos equate musical worship to ignoring the Word of God. The "old wives fables" have always and continue to be embedded in so called "gospel songs" which repudiate the songs and sermons of the Spirit of Christ. However, the prophecy is good for many ages which say:

And the songs of the temple shall be howlings (Yalal or wailing tones like halal or praise) in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence (finally holding their peace). Amos 8:3

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: Amos 8:11

And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it. Amos 8:12

Why did Christ put the teaching leadership in the hands of senior, qualified males? It was because:

For there are many unruly (insubordinate, not put under) and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Titus 1:10

Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucres sake. Titus 1:11

Among the pagans, especially the Hittites, the composers and singers of songs as magical incantation were effeminate males or the "old women." When they died they were virtually worshiped like a goddess and their songs were put into the "catalog" or song book. This practice continues as we honor a composer and sing her songs while, necessarily, ignoring the songs and sermons of God.

Therefore, Paul warned Timothy about cultural practices which must not alter the church or EKKLESIA (Synagogue) of Christ which silences the PLEASURING songs and music and feuding over "preferences." Then with one MOUTH and one MIND they can glorify God only by speaking "that which is written." Paul defined the people who assembled with a form of the word "synagogue." And there was no praise service in the synagogue. In Romans 14 Paul said. If you cause discord to your brother by bringing these issues into the assembly you have missed the Mark

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Ro.14:17

1 Timothy Chapter Four

NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Tim 4:1

Daimonion (g1140) dahee-mon'-ee-on; neut. of a der. of 1142; a doemonic being; by extens. a deity: - devil, god.

Daimon (g1142) dah'ee-mown; from daio, (to distribute fortunes); a doemon or supernatural spirit (of a bad nature): - devil

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. [seed pickers]

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:2

Hupokrinô reply, make answer
2. expound, interpret, explain [outlawed by Peter as private interpretation] II. Att., speak in dialogue, hence play a part on the stage, be an actor, kômôidian, of orators and rhetoricians, represent dramatically, use histrionic arts, exaggerate, deliver a speech, declaim, of orators and rhetoricians, represent dramatically

rhętor-ikos , ę, on, oratorical, hę rhętorikę (sc. technę). These are the craftsmen lumped with the singers, musicians and "grinder" doing merchandise in the house of prayer. Rev. 18:22

hupo-kritikos , ę, on, belonging to hupokrisis 2. suited for speaking or delivery, lexis -kôtatę ib. 1413b9, cf. Demetr.Eloc.193: hę -kę (sc. technę) the art of delivery

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 1 Tim 4:3

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 1 Tim 4:4

For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Tim 4:5

Paul gives Timothy no space to compose sermons: If he does not speak according to the Word of God then he has none of God's Spirit or Written Word of the Living Word in him.

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 1 Tim 4:6

Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 1 Timothy 4:7


muth-ikos , ę, on, mythic, legendary, m. tis humnos Pl.Phdr.265c ; hoi m. chronoi D.H.1.2 ; ta m. books of legends, title of treatise by Neanthes, Ath.13.572e. Adv. -kôs Arist.Metaph.1000a18 , 1074b4, Cael.284a23; opp. alęthôs, Phld. Rh.2.53S.: Comp. -ôterôs or -ôteron, Sch.Lyc.18, Tz.H.2.823.

humnos , ho, hymn, ode, in praise of gods or heroes

Plato Phaedrus: [265c] plausible discourse, we chanted a sportive and mythic hymn in meet and pious strain to the honor of your lord and mine, Phaedrus, Love, the guardian of beautiful boys.

Or online

Socrates. Come, O ye Muses, melodious, as ye are called, whether you have received this name from the character of your strains, or because the Melians are a musical race, help, O help me in the tale which my good friend here desires me to rehearse, in order that his friend whom he always deemed wise may seem to him to be wiser than ever.

Once upon a time there was a fair boy, or, more properly speaking, a youth; he was very fair and had a great many lovers;

and there was one special cunning one, who had persuaded the youth that he did not love him, but he really loved him all the same; and one day when he was paying his addresses to him, he used this very argument-that he ought to accept the non-lover rather than the lover

Polybius, Histories Timoleon. Phalaris

The incapacity of Timaeus for forming a judgment. he has himself laid down. According to him, "poets and historians betray their own tastes by the incidents which they repeatedly record in their writings. Thus the poet by his fondness for banqueting scenes shows that he is a glutton; and in the same way Aristotle, by frequently describing rich food in his writings, betrays his love of dainty living and his greediness." On the same principle he judges Dionysius the tyrant because he "was always very particular in the ornamentation of his dining-couches, and had hangings of exquisite make and variegated colours." If we apply this principle to Timaeus, we shall have abundant reason to think badly of him.

In attacking others he shows great acuteness and boldness; when he comes to independent narrative he is full of dreams, miracles, incredible myths,--in a word, of miserable superstition and old wives' tales.

The truth is that Timaeus is a proof [p. 101] of the fact, that at times, and in the case of many men,

want of skill and want of judgment so completely destroy the value of their evidence,

that though present at and eye-witnesses of the facts which they record, they might just as well have been absent or had no eyes.

Plato, Alcibiades 1, Alcibiades 2, Hipparchus, Lovers, Theages, Charmides, Laches, Lysis

[205c] but he only writes and relates things that the whole city sings of, recalling Democrates and the boy's grandfather Lysis and all his ancestors, with their wealth and the horses they kept, and their victories at Delphi, the Isthmus, and Nemea,1 with chariot-teams and coursers, and, in addition, even hoarier antiquities than these. Only two days ago he was recounting to us in some poem of his the entertainment of Hercules,--how on account of his kinship with Hercules their forefather welcomed the hero,

[205d] being himself the offspring of Zeus and of the daughter of their deme's founder; such old wives' tales, and many more of the sort, Socrates,--these are the things he tells and trolls, while compelling us to be his audience.

When I heard this I said: Oh, you ridiculous Hippothales, do you compose and chant a triumph song on yourself, before you have won your victory?

It is not on myself, Socrates, he replied, that I either compose or chant it.
You think not, I said.
Then what is the truth of it? he asked.

[205e] Most certainly, I replied, it is you to whom these songs refer. For if you prevail on your favorite, and he is such as you describe, all that you have spoken and sung will be so much glory to you, and a veritable eulogy upon your triumph in having secured such a favorite as that: whereas if he eludes your grasp, the higher the terms of your eulogy of your favorite, the greater will seem to be the charms and virtues you have lost, and you will be ridiculed accordingly. Hence anyone who deals wisely in love-matters

Graus , gen. gra_os, hę: Ion. gręus , gręos, voc. gręu: poet. also gręüs , voc. gręü: barbarous voc. grao in Ar.Th.1222: nom. pl. graes Ar.Fr.350 , Timocl.25: acc. graus E.Andr.612 , etc.:--old woman, Hom., esp. in Od., 1.191, al., A.Eu.38, etc.; g. palaię Od. 19.346 : prov., graôn huthlos old wives' fables, Pl.Tht.176b: with Subst., g. gunę E.Tr.490 , Ar. Th.345, D.19.283: Com., ho graus of an old man, Ar.Th.1214 cod. R.

graiôpias , ou, ho, man like an old woman, Hsch. gramaitita , grammateuta, Hsch.

huthlos 1 idle talk, nonsense, Plat., Dem.; in pl., huthlous legein [ to lay asleep, lull to sleep], like Lat. nugae, Plat.


Nugae , a-rum, f. [etym. dub.; old form naugae; cf.: naucum, nux] , jokes, jests, idle speeches, trifles, trumpery, nonsense (syn. ineptiae). to play the fool

Of the songs of hired female mourners at a funeral: haec sunt non nugae: non enim mortualia, Plaut. As. 4, 1, 63 .--Acc. to Nonius, Plautus called women's finery nugae, Non. 144, 30; v. nugivendus. --

Similar Definition:

Parasi-tor . a-ri, v. dep. [id.] , to play the parasite, to sponge

Cithari-zo , a-re, v n., = kitharizô, to play on or strike the cithara, Nep. Epam. 2, 1; Vulg. Apoc. 14, 2.

Plato, Cratylus, Theaetetus, Sophist, Statesman

Pl.Tht.176b [176b] and to escape is to become like God, so far as this is possible; and to become like God is to become righteous and holy and wise. But, indeed, my good friend, it is not at all easy to persuade people that the reason generally advanced for the pursuit of virtue and the avoidance of vice--namely, in order that a man may not seem bad and may seem good--is not the reason why the one should be practiced and the other not; that, I think, is merely old wives' chatter, as the saying is.

II. scum of boiled milk, Id.Pl. 1206, Arist.GA743b7.

Aristophanes, Plutus (ed. Eugene O'Neill, Jr.)


Take the pots of vegetables which we are going to offer to the god in honor of his installation and carry them on your head; you just happen luckily to be wearing a beautiful embroidered robe.

Old Woman

[1200] And what about the object of my coming?


Everything shall be according to your wish. The young man will be with you this evening.

Old Woman

Oh! if you promise me his visit, I will right willingly carry the pots.

She puts them on her head.


Those are strange pots indeed! [1205] Generally the scum rises to the top of the pots, but here the pots are raised to the top of the old woman.

Plutus begins to march solemnly off the stage; the Old Woman follows him.

Leader of the Chorus

Let us withdraw without more tarrying, and follow the others, singing as we go.

They do so.

III. sea-crab, Arist.HA601a18 (as v.l.), Artem.2.14.

IV. kind of locust, g. seriphos Zen.2.94 .

Graus is often used with:

pherô (Locr. pharô) the source of eisphreô 1 2 -phręsomai 3 to let in, admit, Lat. admittere, Ar., Dem.:--Mid. to bring in with one, Eur. [The Root phreô, prob. akin to pherô, is only found in compos. with dia-, eis-, epeis-, ek-]

phortizô [phortos] to load, Babr.; phortion ph. tina to load one with a burden, NTest.:--Mid., ta meiona phortizesthai to ship the smaller part of one's wealth, Hes.--Pass. to be heavy laden, perf. part. pephortismenos NTest., Luc.

The laded burden Jesus removed was "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals. Therefore, phero is similar to the Greek word KOMOS which was the naked dance of wind-drinking musicians:

Komizô , carry off as a prize or booty. This word is related to haireô or heresy which uses spiritual excitement and singing odes to CARRY AWAY you or your property for their own use. This is the meaning of charismatic which uses music, babbling and other rituals to get one involved in a sexual or homosexual experience.


The Samaritan woman is the only one who truly grasped the TRUTH from the Old Testament. She said that MESSIAH will tell us all things. Jesus confirmed this TRUTH and said;

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. John 4:21

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews. John 4:22

Salvation and therefore the Christ or Savior came through the Jews and not the Samaritans;

Soter (g4990) so-tare'; from 4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ: - saviour.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23

Mount Zion and Mount Gerezim were the PLACES of physical "worship." However, Jesus defined the human spirit as the new PLACE of worship devoted to TRUTH. Truth is the opposite of MYTH.

Aletheia (g225) al-ay'-thi-a; from 227; truth: - true, * truly, truth, verity.

Aletheuo (g226) al-ayth-yoo'-o; from 227; to be true (in doctrine and profession): - speak (tell) the truth.

(For the fruit of the Spirit [mind] is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Ep.5:9

Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: Col.1:6

Alethes (g227) al-ay-thace'; from 1 (as a neg. particle) and 2990; true (as not concealing): - true, truly, truth.

Liddell and Scott define TRUTH as opposed to MYTH.

Alęthęs [a_privat, lęthô lanthanô] unconcealed, true:I. true, opp. to pseudęs, Hom.; to alęthes, by crasis talęthes, ionic tôlęthes, and ta alęthę, by crasis talęthę the truth, Hdt., attic

2. of persons, truthful, Il., attic
3. of oracles and the like, true, coming true, Aesch., etc.

alętheuô [alęthęs]

I. to speak truth, Aesch., etc.; tas deka hęmeras ęlętheuse he was right about the 10 days, Xen.; al. tous epainous to prove their praises true, Luc.

II. Pass. to come true, of predictions, Xen.

It is important tounderstand "godless" and "old wives tales."

Godless is from the Greek:
Bebelos (g952) beb'-ay-los; from the base of 939 and belos, (a threshold); accessible (as by crossing the door-way), i.e. (by impl. of Jewish notions) heathenish, wicked: - profane (person)

But shun profane and vain babblings (speaking in tongues: empty and artificial sound): for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 2 Timothy 2:16 (This was part of Gnosticism)

Baskaino (g940) bas-kah'ee-no; akin to 5335; to malign, i.e. (by extens.) to fascinate (by false representations): - bewitch.

Mustikos Iakchos the mystical chant 

Heredotus 8:65 They saw advancing from Eleusis a cloud of dust as if raised by the feet of about thirty thousand men. They marvelled at what men might be raising such a cloud of dust and immediately heard a cry. The cry seemed to be the “Iacchus” of the mysteries, [2] and when Demaratus, ignorant of the rites of Eleusis, asked him what was making this sound, Dicaeus said, “Demaratus, there is no way that some great disaster will not befall the king's army

Iacchus Bacchus, whose name was derived from the boisterous song, regarded as teh son of Zeus and Demeter.  Also Dionysus

[218b] a Pausanias, an Aristodemus, and an Aristophanes--I need not mention Socrates himself--and all the rest of them; every one of you has had his share of philosophic frenzy and transport, so all of you shall hear. You shall stand up alike for what then was done and for what now is spoken. But the domestics, and all else profane and clownish, must clap the heaviest of doors upon their ears.“Well, gentlemen, when the lamp had been put out

Because Paul was inspired and a great scholar, he filled his record with signs which point us to the Old Testament and to pagan religious practices. Whether he intends to point to this passage or not it is our key to look at the meaning of leaping over the threshold:

And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lords sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the kings children, and all such as are clothed (putting on of) with strange apparel (vestment). Zep 1:8 (Note: the musical performers were often strange or foreign women)

In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold (from pethen or serpent, adder), which fill their masters houses with violence and deceit. Zep 1:9

Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagons house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day. 1 Samuel 5:5

Paul may have connected this to the pagan worship in Corinth where women were tempted to get involved with the booms and clangs of music. The terms in 13:1 are identical to the bronze vases or the "familiar spirit" or the musical nebel as magical devices to attract or repel the demons or gods:

"The priest stands on the threshold (of the temple) and awakens the god calling to him in the Egyptian language." This is how Arnobius mocks the ritual of Isis: 'Why these revels you sing each morning to awaken him, accompanying your songs on the flute? Do the gods go to sleep, then, that they need to be awakened?' At Delphi the Thyads went to waken the young Dionysus, just as at Rhodes Bacchus woke gently from his sleep to the sound of the hydraulic organ." (de Vaux, p. 246).

Does this fit the urge to use music "to catch the Spirit when He is near" or to "lead the worshipers into the presence of God?"

The Jews may have tried to avoid this. However, the threshold and music were always points of dangerous magic:

"The most probable answer seem to be that the chiming of the holy bells was thought to drive far off the envious and wicked spirits who lurked about the door of the sanctuary, ready to pounce on and carry off the richly apparelled minister as he stepped across the threshold in the discharge of his sacred office. At least this view, which has found favour with some modern scholars, is strongly supported by analogy; for it has been a common opinion, from the days of antiquity downwards, that demons and ghosts can be put to flight by the sound of metal, whether it be the musical jingle of little bells, the deep-mouthed clangour of great bells, the shrill clash of cymbals, the booming of gongs, or the simple clink and clank of plates of bronze or iron knocked together or struck with hammer or sticks. Hence, in rites of exorcism it has often been customary for the celebrant either to ring a bell which he holds in his hand, or wear attached to some part of his person a whole nest of bells, which jingle at every movement he makes." (Frazer, James George, Folk-Lore in the Old Testament, p. 417-8, Macmillian, 1923)

This urge is still expressed as a musical worship facilitator who can help "lead the worshipers into the presence of God."

Old Wives Tales
The myths or old wives tales were especially associated with the pagan mysteries at which women prophesiers or singer-musicians presided. They ruled over the males (visiting, seeking customers) to bring them into the presence of the gods and onto their beds in back. These myths usually composed by the women were "for sale" stories made up to help the worshiper into the presence of the gods or to cure family problems of find lost goats. The worshiper must remain absolutely silent while the "team" performs the myth with the expectation that some great sound, sight or feeling will be revealed by the "prophetesses"

Muthos (g3454) moo'-thos; perh. from the same as 3453 (through the idea of tuition); a tale, i.e. fiction ("myth"): - fable.

Mueo (g3453) moo-eh'-o; from the base of 3466; to initiate, i.e. (by impl.) to teach: - instruct

Musterion (g3466) moos-tay'-ree-on; from a der. of muo, (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue (babbling) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit (in his/her mind) he speaketh mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:2

"god" is without the article and theos includes pagan gods. The Corinthian women were speaking "mysteries" out of their own "spirit" and were, therefore, just speaking into the air. The god or goddess of the air was Juno worshipped by the women who "got drunk" on vapors or airs from a fissure in the ground and then hallucinated. Someone interpreted this speaking in tongues and sold it to you. Including the context which starts with demon worship in chapter 10 makes it certain that Paul was condemning pagan propheying (11:5) brought into the assembly (11:17f). It can be said of much music along with extreme speaking in tongues that:

"the condition is that of Ecstasy, the utterances are words or sounds of prayer or praise but are not clear in meaning, and give the impression to the hearer of being mysteries or insane expressions."... This phenomenon seems to include sighs, groanings, shoutings, cries, and utterances either of disconnected words (such as Abba, hosanna, hallelujah, maranatha) or connected speech of a jubilating sort which impresses the observer as ecstatic prayer or psalmodic praise." (Schaff-Herzog, Speaking in Tongues, p. 36)

The worship in Corinth, Ephesus and Colosse before they became Christians was concerned with Dionysus or Bacchus. When Paul said: "don't get drunk with wine" but "sing" Biblical truth in the heart as you "speak" it to one another, he was warning of Bacchus worship which still appealed to certain members of the new body of Christ.

"Now Iamblichus (De Mysteriis, III.ix) goes into the matter of the so-called Corybantic and Bacchic 'frenzies' produced by musical instruments in the Mysteries of Ceres and Bacchus; and in his Life of Pythagoras (xxv) he, further, tells us that:

The whole Pythagoric school went through a course of musical training, both in harmony and touch, whereby, by means of appropriate chants,

they beneficially converted the dispositions of the soul to contrary emotions.

Donandar (duh-NAN-dahr) God of Music and Dance

"Donandar is the god of music and dance. His present-day worshippers include wayfaring minstrels, jugglers, musicians, actors, carnivals, dancers, and circuses.

"Candidates for priesthood in Donandar's cult must be master level with at least two entertainment skills, among other requirements. They have access to divine magic involving illusions and dance.

(Modern form: "To lead them into the presence of God.)

Position Responsibilities: This person will work with volunteer leaders, ministers and staff to coordinate the planning and presentation of worship activities. Sunday worship activities will reflect the diversity of background and worship styles unique to the Woodmont Hills membership. In addition, "seeker" style assemblies will be planned and presented at other times of the week using contemporary music, drama and teaching formats more familiar to the unchurched segment of our community.

Minimum of Bachelor's degree or equivalent experience in performing arts (music, drama, directing, theatrical programming).

You may think that you are not under the influence. However, the tingle in the chest, the blood coursing through your veins and even hair standing up on the back of your neck or the child chill is proof that instrumental or vocal music has put you into the frenzies. You will feel worse when the drug high wears off.

Click for more on Dionysus or Bacchus. Paul said that he was not one of those speakers trained in the Greek theater where drama was always religious.

The old wive's tales are from the Greek:
The old wives were: Graodes (g1126) grah-o'-dace; from graus , (an old woman) and 1491; crone-like, i.e. silly: - old wives.

"Paul called the teachings 'profane' and 'fit only for old women,' a strong indication that women were the teachers. There isn't any doubt Jesus identified Jezebel as a false prophetess and teacher who taught heresies mixed with sexual immorality (Rev. 3:20). From the available information it can be deduced she was a Gnostic teacher." (Trombley, Who Says Women Can't Teach, p. 165)

Only widows who were older and pledged to remain unmarried were to serve the church for their support by visiting women whom the preachers were not permitted to counsel. Younger widows were more likely to fall into the pagan form of "preaching" from house to house among the women.

And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers (bubbling) also and busybodies (peddling magic and curious arts), speaking (includes preaching) things which they ought not. 1Tim 5:13

Does this say something about young, attractive men who are underemployed and therefore desert their flock, wander from meeting to meeting or church to church, bubbling over with exhilaration attractive to men and women, peddling their magic (cure your bad breath) and using their forum to preach lies?

Like Tele-marketers, they convince you that God has lead you to buy their books and tapes as a direct way to get the prophet into your problem and check book! And you love it!

In Hebrew "singing" is often associated with "traveling about like a harlot." These women gathered at the "places of meeting" such as the "motels" on the trade routes. The sold their own services or, as with Tyre and Babylon the commercial prostitutes, they served as "teams" to entice the customers with the hope of so deluding them that they could be seduced out of a good "contribution." The story of the Egyptian Wen Amon is perfect proof of the nature of Tyre and the Phoenicians.

However, the older, senior males were to teach because of knowledge and seniority. Furthermore, they were not likely to fall into speaking in tongues or madness. Paul opens up a teaching role fore women. However, by localizing it (in the homes) and directing it (to the young women) he explicitely excluded them (or young men) from the public teaching role:

BUT speak thou the things which become sound doctrine (that which has been delivered unto you) : Tit 2:1

(Speak) That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. Tit 2:2

(Speak That) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; Tit 2:3

That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, Tit 2:4

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Tit 2:5

Paul wrote Timothy about the same thing and spoke of lifting holy hands:

This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 1Ti 1:18

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck: 1Ti 1:19

Of whom is Hymenaeus (from god of weddings) and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme (villify man or God). 1Ti 1:20

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1Ti 2:1

This is not a generic prayer. Rather, this is because God wants everyone saved-

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the (complete) knowledge of the truth. 1Ti.2:4

Man is: Anthropos (g444) anth'-ro-pos; (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being: - certain, man

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men (anthropos), the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti.2:5

Many preachers believe that they are "more equal" than anyone else in the congregation and will slap you across the face if you stumble onto their turf and utter anything Biblical. Therefore, they do not believe that anthropos means that all men are equal. Elevating women over men in the assembly, if we believe Plato, is a way to use women to abuse men who disagree but must conform to become members of the revised government or family.

When the Psalmist lifted his hands he was, first of all, asking and listening for God's message for which he thirsted:

I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands. Ps 143:5

I stretch (break apart) forth my hands (palms) unto thee: my soul thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land. Selah. Ps 143:6

Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee. Ps 143:8

Paul's description shows that he was not speaking of the ceremonial legalism of a man-led prayer. Rather, he was asking that the qualified men lift up their hands to God in a way quite different from the Pagan prophesying which the Women tried on the church. Furthermore, consistent with the Old Testament with which Paul was acquainted, when the elders lift their holy hands not tainted with pagan worship, he is describing a prelude to the elder delivering the Word "as it has been delivered" unless he is inspired:

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity (truth). 1Ti 2:7

I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy (not polluted by paganism) hands, without wrath (anger) and doubting (quarreling RSV). 1Ti.2:8

Men is: Aner (g435) an'-ayr; a prim. word [comp. 444]; a man (prop. as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.

Paul was never a preacher in the modern, distorted sense. Rather, he was the keruc or herald. He was like a Paul Revere as the "horseback" crier. His message could not be changed and he could not charge the recipient the "postage." He was also the doctrinal teacher.

Consistent with the synagogue which was little changed in Christianity, Paul was the ordained herald and teacher receiving his commission directly from Christ the Spirit. As such, he could appoint other men to faithfully repeat what he had already revealed by the Spirit. As in the synagogue, only men were to pray and teach. There is some evidence that men and women were separated to keep the sexual impulse from ruling over the meeting.

From the Old Testament we understand that males lifting their hands was not falling into a charismatic fit. It was symbolic of asking God for His word and that others would heed the message.

The danger was not in offering an "opening prayer" or "the main prayer." The danger was that the man become obsessed with himself and begin to "lift up" or "put on airs." This might happen during the second phase where the elder was to deliver Paul's message as it had been delivered to him. He was to remain an "ambassador" (senior teacher) and not even "peek" into the envelope containing the message. Once, the elder fell back into the charismatic prophesying usually practiced by women, God would pour out His wrath by making a fool of the teacher:

Wrath is:

Orge (g3709) or-gay'; from 3713; prop. desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by anal) violent passion

The danger of attractive pagan musical worship was that it helped manipulate the crowd into speaking or singing in tongues. As mind facilitators or manipulators they would not stomp around, slap the pulpit, foam and fume, lecture, and literally excite himself so much that he was out of control. He might even dispute with God by causing the "audience" to doubt that Christ revealed and Paul taught the "once for all" revelation of the Mind of Christ (the Spirit of God).

The other danger was that women who had been the performers in many pagan temples as prophetesses would rise out of their seats and begin to openly dialog and contend with the elder who might just be her husband.

Doubtings are internal or external. Lifting up the hands to God signals that you are opening His Word so that He can complete the dialog without the same form of charismatic ravings (mania) the women prophesiers were guilty of:

Dialogismos (g1261) dee-al-og-is-mos'; from 1260; discussion, i.e. (internal) consideration (by impl. purpose), or (external) debate: - dispute, doubtful (-ing), imagination, reasoning, thought.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Ph.2:14

Both men and women who were weak in the faith because they had been taught in the pagan temples. They were to be accepted in these assemblies but they were to be seated and silent. For instance, the women had been the prophesiers with song, dance and instrumental music associated with meat sold in the markets. These charismatic idolaters were to be received so that they could be taught: they were not the stand-up judges of what the assembled Christian church should be teaching:

HIM that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations (Diakrisis or judicial estimations). Ro 14:1

These stand-ups, mostly women it seems, give no evidence that they ever had the supernatural gift which Paul descibed to be able to dispute. This was attempting to discern whether the speaker was correct or not:

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1Co.12:10

While the "law" may have applied to those places where they were transgressing it and is held not to fit the modern world, the rise of charismatic preaching without authority again restores the atmosphere of Corinth where women feel equally qualified to "stand up" and "speak out" in audible-visible roles.

This problem is eleminated when Christ and Paul become the authority and the elder-preacher becomes the herald just relaying the once-revealed word as it has been delivered to them.

While the elders were the only official pastor-teachers of each flock, they could, as in the Synagogue, call upon others to pray or read:

"One or the other of these elders led the congregation in prayer; one or the other of them read from Scripture; one or the other likewise taught ('in word and teaching,' 5:17) and prophesied (1Cor. 14), i. e., restated parts of the divine revelation." (Lenski, First Tim 2:8, p. 554)

Next, Paul uses the word likewise which is interpreted to mean that women have the same roles as men. The question then is: Are the women to likewise lift holy hands and pray and teach? This is the claim of those who will ignore God just to make what they want to do "Scriptural." Look at the passage in its context:

To the Men: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy (not polluted by paganism) hands, without wrath (anger) and doubting (quarreling RSV). 1Ti.2:8

To the women: In like manner (even so) also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamedfacedness and sobriety (under control); not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 1Ti.2:9

Did not say: In like manner lead in prayer!!

These two statements are not reciprocal: Women don't lead in prayer; men do not braid their hair!

The "Only Inspired Version" for feminist churches is the NIV. People get away with saying that it truthfully defends co-equal roles for men and women. However, as usual, they just say that knowing that most will never call their hand. Therefore, look at this passage in the NIV:

I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. 1Ti 2:8NIV

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 1Ti 2:9NIV

The likewise has to do only with the conduct of both men and women and not the role played in "worship services."

The Lutheran, Lenski, makes the argument that if this means that:

The men pray while "lifting up holy (not polluted by paganism) hands, without wrath (anger) and doubting (quarreling RSV). 1Ti.2:8

Then likewise it means that:

The women pray while "adorning themselves in modest apparel, with shamedfacedness and sobriety (under control); not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 1Ti.2:9

First, we should note that women do not "adorn themselves" as an act of worship after they get to the assembly. Rather, this is the dress and attitude the women are to bring to church. They are not to lift holy hands as they adorn themselves.

Second: The grammar will not allow it, the text does not allow it and Paul immediately follows up so that we know that he does not allow it

Third, Paul uses the same word (likewise) in similar ways which proves too much:

Looking back to the similar doctrine in Titus the point is that Paul is to teach or exhort three classes of people all of whom have different responsibilities:

That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. Tit2:2

The aged women likewise (I also want), that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; Tit 2:3

That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, Tit 2:4

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Tit 2:5

Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. Tit 2:6

Paul does not want women to do what the men do in addition to what women do. And he does not want the young men to do what the women do. He does not want the young men to be "obedient to their own husband" and likewise "be sober minded." That's just silliness looking for a proof-text to do what Paul said not to do, isn't it!

In addition to modest dress which will not exercise their authority (sexual) over the men, they are not to jump out of their seats or stand before the assembly with their eyes uplifted and hands waving at God and man singing as only talented singers can perform:

Shamefacedness is: Aidos (g127) ahee-doce'; perh. from 1 (as a neg. particle) and 1492 (through the idea of downcast eyes); bashfulness, i.e. (towards men), modesty or (towards God) awe: - reverence, shamefacedness.

Uncovered braided hair was to "catch souls" to "make them fly." This is explained by Paul in 1Cor 11:5 as "prophesying" which was singing with musical accompaniment. For details Click Here.

Paul could not sanely say "likewise I permit women to lift holy hands in leading prayer while adorning her hair and then say:

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti.2:12KJV

Paul has revealed the mind of Christ in two ways in public roles:

Positive: I do want men to lift holy hands in prayer where "men" is senior and male.

Negative: I do not permit the women to teach or usurp authority over the men.

As Paul continues, it is clear that he is not just speaking of "who leads the opening prayer." Rather, the one lifting holy hands is the one who must also teach without the confusion and disputing common to Pagan worship. He is opening his palms up as if reading the message from God.

In 2:8 the word "likewise" has as its antecedant "without wrath (anger) and doubting (quarreling RSV). That is, the elder is not to to be subject to censoring and questioning in the public assembly by his wife who believes that she has "accrued" authority from her husband's position. If the wife has some fight to pick she can do so at home.

Then Paul anticipates modern wrath and anger over his doctrine and puts the rule down again in specific terms:

In like manner (even so) also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamedfacedness and sobriety (sane or under control); not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array (Vesture); 1Ti.2:9

But which becometh women professing godliness (reverent worshiper) with good works. 1Ti 2:10

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 1Ti 2:11

False prophesying with magic and music has always been the particular power of women. Ezekiel warned against performing women prophesiers who hunted souls by ensnaring them. They used the length of hair and the length of veils and perhaps (we don't know) even magical pillows in the armholes which might have been shoulder pads to elevate their masculinity as they usurped the role of the true prophets.

Notice that, like Paul, Ezekiel addressed both the male prophesiers (often singers, dancer, players) and likewise addressed the women:

To the Men: And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God. Ezekiel 13:9

To the Women: Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy (1Cor 11:5) out of their own heart (14:2) ; and prophesy thou against them, Ezekiel 13:17

And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs (veils) upon the head of every stature (length) to hunt souls Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? Ezekiel 13:18

And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying (made up songs which teach error) to my people that hear your lies? Ezekiel 13:19

The women in all of the "just out of paganism" would have many women who had been involved as prophetesses in the pagan temples. The lusting males wanted female priestesses and so they were chosen for the public worship because they could attract the seekers. The singing, dancing, hand-clapping and playing musical instruments in the secular style was a deliberate effort to "hunt and slay souls" just so they can get a handful of barley or a "plug for my new record." This pollution or spiritual prostitution was:

Halal or Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): break, defile, eat as common things, gather the grape thereof, take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.

It is interesting that the Judas bag was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments" and that Jesus "polluted" or ground a piece of bread to bits and fed it to Judas. This "sop" is directly related to external melody or psallo which Paul outlawed in Ephesus.

Click Here to read Matthew Henry's commentary on the pollution caused by false women prophesiers.

We noted that the NIV is the so-called authority for churches to violate Paul's clear statement. However, the following three versions do not give this aid and comfort:

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over (like a babbling wind) the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti.2:12KJV

I never let women teach men or lord it over them. Let them be silent in your church meetings. 1Ti 2:12LIV

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 1Ti 2:12NIV

Remember, that in Corinth where women were not permitted to sing or speak even inspired information. Likewise, the inspired men were to speak one at a time and another inspired man was to discern whether he was actually speaking for Christ.

Woman is: Gune (g1135) goo-nay'; prob. from the base of 1096; a woman; spec. a wife

Silence in Timothy and in Peter's prohibition of women teaching or any stand up role:

Esuchia (g2271) hay-soo-khee'-ah; feminine of 2272; (as noun) stillness, i.e. desistance from bustle or language: - quietness, silence.

Esuchios (g2272) hay-soo'-khee-os; a prol. form of a comp. prob. of a der. of the base of 1476 and perh. 2192 (to hold); prop. keeping one's seat (sedentary), i.e. (by impl.) still (undisturbed, undisturbing): - peaceable, quiet.

Hedraios (g1476) hed-rah'-yos; to sit; sedentary, i.e. (by impl.) immovable: - settled, stedfast

Paul does just not want the women to be silent in the sense of not preaching over or teaching over the assembly, he wants them to remain seated. Part of this is based on the conditions: the pagan women were used to being unruly and disruptive believing that disorder was attractive to the gods. The Hebrew Halal describes this form of body-praise. Part of it was timeless: women standing over, singing over or preaching over men exercises their particular sexual authority.

In the book, The Acts of Thomas, we hear:

"How the flute-girl, holding her flute in her hand, went about to them all and played, but when she came to the place where the apostle was, she stood over him and played at his head for a long space: now this flute-girl was by race an Hebrew...

"And all when they saw it were amazed and inquired which of them it was that was missing. And when it became manifest that it was the hand of the cup-bearer which had smitten the apostle, the flute-girl brake her flute and cast it away and went and sat down at the apostle's feet, saying: This is either a god or an apostle of God, for I heard him say in the Hebrew tongue: ' I shall now see the hand that hath smitten me dragged by dogs', which thing ye also have now beheld; for as he said, so hath it come about. And some believed her, and some not." Read the rest of the story which explains Paul's statements about music.

Notice that neither Jesus nor Paul gave men authority in the sense of command leadership such as preaching over and usurping the authority of the male elders. Elders rule as they teach and others submit as they listen and obey. The males lifting holy hands had no authority unless, of course, they were the common pagan prophesiers who had sexual and homosexual authority over men.

At this time, the word for authority involves sexual authority. By uncovering the hair or braiding it with ornaments or "putting on apparel" for the effect the goal was to seduce men and gain total control over them. A woman who stood over the assembly to sing, preach or just wave her hands around subjects herself to the wandering eyes of the congregation (and the preacher). The result is intentional or ignorant sexual subversion of the otherwise holy environment which was primarily for reading the revealed Word.

Worship is not booms and clangs to frazzle the nervers with hyped-up, wired up, over-amplified, overdressed, and over exposed women. Nor do preachers as a fairly new addition perform preaching as an act of worship for the congregation.

What applies to women applies to everyone not inspired or duly selected as presiding elders competent to teach the Word to those willing to be taught.

Musical worship teams in hymns (meaning prayers) are deliberately usurping authority over the entire church to shut them up because silence will not attract as man commercial customers to the "worship service" seeking to "bring the worshipers into the presence of God."

Richland Hills Church of Christ and the Deaconess

The Deaconess - Rubel Shelly is

Huldah - Prophetess - Librarian?
Ezekiel 13 - Women in Ministry - Rubel Shelly
1 Timothy 3:11 - Deaconesses
Deacon in The Catholic Encyclopedia
Deaconess in the Catholic Encyclopedia
Deaconesses in the Council of Nicea A.D. 325
Women Deacons (Deaconesses) - Didascalia
Women Deacons (Deaconesses) - Tertullian
Women in Worship - Deaconesses - Lifting Holy Hands

Kenneth Sublett

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