Work out Your Own Salvation: Rubel Shelly
Rubel Shelly and John York: Work out your salvation means "Change Pauls commands" based on YOUR CULTURE in a human-divine partnership.
Rubel Shelly and John York seek a human-divine effort to declare that Paul was homophobic and sexist and bigoted.
A Menonite site: Last week a gifted high school student told me that his circle of friends had decided the Apostle Paul "was an idiot"--that his writings show him to be sexist, homophobic, bigoted, and so on.
I responded that Paul actually wrote one of the most liberating documents for women of all time.
A quick review: not checked.
John York: Unlike homosexuality, the "holy kiss" and washing feet clearly were culturally conditioned statements. Unlike the issue with homosexuality, there is certainly nothing about lips touching cheeks or water applied to feet that challenges the work of God in the created order. So we were appropriately led to expect that these commands might be conditioned by culture.
Carrol D. Osburn ACU: Note how Bro. O. views Scripture:"The Bible is not so much a 'heaven-sent answer book' as a historical book produced within and for a historical community--
yet it serves as Scripture today because people find themselves accountable to it.
That is what make its Scripture" (p. 46).
This is one of the most damning statements in his book for it reveals much about his low view of the inspiration of God's Word.
Rubel Shelly and John York: Neither is there anything that challenges the divine order in creation by having women partner with males in serving God.
So isn't it at least possible that there could be cultural conditioning at work in some of the statements about how men and women function in the life of the church?
And couldn't Christians disagree in good faith about the interpretation of these statements without any party to the discussion jettisoning a high view of Scripture as the Word of God?
Carrol D. Osburn "...but another step must be taken if the text would actually become Scripture and that is to engage the text in dialogue to ask, 'Now that I understand the meaning of this text for today, can I accept this" (p. 47).
"Paul's arguments carried weight in his day even though they may not necessarily be convincing by today's standards" (p. 135).
Shelly and York ask the same asks about the possibility of Paul's "cultural" view of Homosexuality:
Rubel Shelly and John York: Rubel: Let me give you an example to work with in relation to the question you've raised: homosexuality and the ordination of practicing homosexuals to ministry.
Why don't we at least entertain the possibility that the Bible simply reflects an ANCIENT TABOO or homophobic prejudice in a few people like Paul -- a taboo and prejudice we need to outgrow?
I think that means that ACCORDING TO OUR CULTURE opens the doors for homosexuals who lust to take over churches as already built "venues for Rock and Roll" (That "F" word from Voodoo land which is the base on which church songs rest). They brag about infiltrating and diverting churches into THEATERS FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT. Most are smart enough to get the debt reduced before the DELIBERATELY SOW DISCORD by bringing in the effeminate "Musical Worship Teams."
They will say that BECAUSE Paul probably was sexist and homophobic the people WORKED OUT their salvation in a human-divine partnership. However, OUR culture is different so we must "work out your salvation" something different because WE have the Holy Spirit person guiding us into NEW TRUTH which is why the NEW HERMENEUTIC begins by repudiating the epistles.
No. You cannot jettison Paul's direct command built on the CREATION ORDER of Adam and Eve and culture which INSURES that female leaders or effeminate males will TURN to religon which means adding back ritual religions for which Jesus Christ died to remove. The laded burden Jesus removed is REIMPOSED in most churches based on IGNORANC or IGNORING the word of God. The burden is defined as "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual." You could never define a musical worship leader at $90.000.oo extorted out of poor working people by the LAW OF TITHING or the LAW OF GIVING. That is why rhetoricians sOPHISts, singers and musicians were card carrying members in the SECT OF HYPOCRITES who, in the Greek world, were known as PARASITES. That is why Paul addressed the "many" new parasites riding on the poor churches: "If they will not work neither shall they eat."
Rubel Shelly and John York confess to be POST MODERN. The Rubel Shelly CORE GOSPEL has only seven facts ABOUT Jesus which has not been "filtered through philosophy and the Bible writer's own personal AGENDA." That means that the BIBLE you carry with you to church was written ONLY for a given culture. Now that the culture has changed, postmodernism and NARRATIVE THEOLOGY gives them permission to "take liberties" and MISUSE the olden Bible to compose a NARRATIVE which fits to your time and place.
This means that they CANNOT preach the gospel of Christ or even "Just Jesus" because THAT JESUS was a product of the CULTURE. How do we know that the writers were not DEMONIC and just trying to lead the Jewish clergy away for DIONYSUS as the THEN god of the Jews?
That means if you hear sermonic SPIRIT BREATHED SCRIPTURE you have been ASSURED that the "spirit" is breathing on Rubel Shelly and John York and allowing them to CONTRADICT the old Bible written by homophobics or women haters like Paul.
Rubel Shelly and John York:
John: Remember, our fundamental conviction is that the Bible is the story of God,
a dramatic narrative that announces and reveals and invites us into participation and relationship with God and one another.
Every scene in that story has been set in some historical human context.
Those cultural settings always have been changing and changeable.
The Bible says that the fundamental conviction is that the Bible is the WRITTEN WORD of the LIVING WORD. He DID NOT ask for help from ANY man because "there was no Man" to intercede. That is why God sent His ARM which was also His SPIRIT or His MIND.
The revealed or written word WORKED OUT a condemnation of MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. This was such a "because of transgression" or TERMINAL SIN that God sentenced them to worship THE STARRY HOST and to later captivity and death.
God NARRATES His word to REPUDIATE the actions and ASSISTANCE of humans.
Much of the Bible is written within the culture of previous earthly or heavenly cultures. The warnings are couched in warning people that THEIR CULTURE is most likely to be A SATANIC culture.
It is true that it is PRETTY HARD to write a narrative which does not occur within some historical framework. However, after the Israelites rejected THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT and rose up in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai, God had Moses write the Law and history within the CONTEXT of ancient Babylonian and Egyptian culture. This was to warn the Israelites that Canaan would be wholly seduced by Satanic Baalism. Therefore, Moses wrote to WARN and try to EQUIP the people to live in a Satanic culture without "becoming as much like the Satanic culture as possible to wine the Satanic worshipers." Click to see Rubel Shelly's recommendation. Part Two...Part Three. Part Four.
Here is the false FIRST PREMISE:
John: Every scene in that story has been set in some historical human context.
Those cultural settings always have been changing and changeable.
Here is the falsely qoted SECOND PREMISE.
Rubel Shelly and John York:
John: In the first century, the community of faith -- the body of Christ -- was, to use Paul's phrase to the Philippians, "working out their salvation" as God himself was working and willing his good pleasure through them (Phil. 2:12-13).
The conclusion which you DEPRIVED YOUR BUDGET to receive directly from humans helping divinity to reveal:
Therefore, because the WORD was based on the Culture.
Cultures are still changing.
You must allow US to help God define the NEW TRUTH. That is confessed by the words postmodern or narrative theology.
Doesn't that give meaning to the fact that rhetoricians, sOPHISts, singers and musicians were SORCERERS of the SECT of the Hypocrites and therefore PARASITES?
New revelation comes to fit the culture in a "human-divine" partnership. One wonders why the Holy Spirit became a SEPARATED person (people) only in the lifetime of Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly and the GA? Why has OUR culture called forth a TRITHEISM or polytheism to make God THREE PERSONS when all of history before denied it.
Was God working in partnership with Boles, Shelly and Lucado JUST NOW to preach polytheism to HONOR God or DISHONOR CHRIST?
I wonder about a GOD of perhaps a billion, trillion trillion universes made up of hundreds of billions of galaxies with hundreds of billion stars who needs Shelly and Lucado to declare that God is PLURAL: unity in diversity?
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Ph 2:3
Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Ph 2: 4
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Ph 2: 5
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Ph 2: 6
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Ph 2: 7
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Ph 2: 8
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Ph 2: 9
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Ph 2: 10
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Ph 2: 11
Paul flatlys repudiates the ide that the people were WORKING OUT A REVELATION for their church:
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Ph 2: 12
Katergazomai (g2716) kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee; from 2596 and 2038; to work fully, i.e. accomplish; by impl. to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.Ep.6:13
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 2Co.4:17
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Ph 2: 13
Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Ph 2: 14
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Ph 2: 15
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Ph 2: 16
The church is ALWAYS counter-cultural: to claim that we must now WORK OUT Scripture to fit our culture is to repudiate the Word of God.
They were not, contrary to the intentions, working out new doctrine to fit their culture! Rather, those who are saved WORK OUT or "WORK our your salvation" by OBEDIENCE to the teachings they had from Paul. Rubel Shelly and John York are proposign the HIGH CHURCH dogma which was rejected by one Pope but the emperor overruled the Pope. It was proposed to be ELEMINATED by the church of England but Queen Elizabeth need the pomp and music for CIVIL ceremonies as did David. There is NOT RATIFICATION of the position that a CULTURE -- meaning the "mother church" -- can invent new doctrine. The High Church lie is gleaned from the Disciples or some Christian churches within Rubel Shelly's new fellowship.
The HIGH CHURCH view of the Disciples of Christ claims that the SCRIPTURES ARE NOT THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY.
Originally part of the Restoration Movement (begun by Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone and others), the Disciples of Christ adopted a denominational structure and created Christian Missionary Fellowship in the late 1800s, thus "abandoning" the "non-denominational" principle of the Movement.
In recent years (1970s following), the Disciples of Christ denomination has sought to broaden its "liberality" and has endorsed the following anti-Biblical positions:
1. homosexual marriages
2. ordained women ministers
3. ordained women elders
4. denied the requirement of immersion for salvation [neo-Calvinism]
5. denied the virgin birth of Jesus (The "incarnational" theory does this. Rubel Shelly compares Mary to Cherokee Sall, the mine prostitute.)
6. participated with other liberal denominations in undermining the accuracy and authenticity of the Bible.
7. participated in unity discussions with the Roman Catholic church, apparently acknowledging the latter's claims and doctrines.
Richard Hamm proposes four methods of NEW REVELATION much like Rubel Shelly's "lining up three points" to navigate the winds.
Richard L. Hamm: The first is Scripture, which for Christians means, of course, the Holy Bible (which is to say the whole Bible: the Hebrew and Christian testaments).
The second is reason and the third is experience. We Disciples are quite appreciative of these sources. Our movement was born within the philosophical context of
John Locke who said that truth can be known through reason tempered with experience.
In this secular age in which we live, I'm afraid that many of us have increasingly depended on these two sources alone, but reason and experience are two valuable sources for understanding God.
Richard L. Hamm: The fourth is tradition. The Church has learned some things in the past two thousand years (that's right, the Church learned some things even before Alexander Campbell!). By looking to the Church's tradition (its history, its declarations, its collective wisdom) one can learn much about the nature of God and the nature of humankind. As the sage has said, one who does not learn history is doomed to repeat it. Studying the church's tradition is a way for us to learn some things the easy way!
The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Living God,
uses these four sources of revelation to teach us who God is and who we are.
"But it was right and important for the Assembly to defeat this resolution because Scripture is not the highest authority:
"Scripture in tension with reason, experience and tradition under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit is our highest authority!
"All must be kept in creative tension with each other if we are to understand the truth about God and, thus, about ourselves.
Of course, not even the "pope" of the Disciples has any qualms about NARRATING or "taking liberties" with the Scriptures to redefine them.
Christ was God the Word: the One and Only God Person. He exampled the laying aside of His full Glory and Majesty to show that as a SON He spoke only what He heard from the Father Who, he said, dwelled in Him. God the "thought" speaks the WORD as His "son" through the BREATH or "spirit" of His mouth.
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Phil 2:8
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Phil 2:9
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Phil 2:10
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:11
The Holy Spirit has a name: it is Jesus of Nazareth.
Following the example of Jesus and of Paul the believers OBEYED that which they had received.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Phil 2:12KJV
How can they OBEY the commands and also WORK OUT your salvation to fit their culture at the same time? They cannot, did not, and neither an Shelly and York.
Dearest friends, when I was there with you, you were always so careful to follow my instructions. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to do the good things that result from being saved,
obeying God with deep reverence, shrinking back from all that might displease him. Phil 2:12LIV
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil 2:13KJV
For God is at work within you, helping you want to obey him, and then helping you do what he wants. Phil 2:13LIV
This is not telling them that GOD works in them helping them obey Him by some FULLER REVELATION or DIRECT OPERATION. If so, then Paul would have nothing to worry about. The fact is that when they ACT Christian it is because God's will is being obeyed in their lives: that which Paul had MINISTERED to them.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law,
or by the hearing of faith? Ga.3:5
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 2Co.3:3
Jesus said in John 6:63 to ignore the FLESH because "MY WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE." The Holy Spirit as "persona" is God who is WHOLLY Sprit without parts but with attributes like those He put into humanity. Otherwise, the Scriptures speak of A holy spirit or A clear conscience which comes only at the time and place of water baptism.
Rubel Shelly and John York: John: We find ourselves engaged in the same divine-human effort, only our cultural circumstances are clearly not the same as those of the first-century world.
The CULTURE has always been that when humans seek to ASCEND to the Godhead, they turn to charismatic preaching and music. This, in Paul's letter to Corinth, means that they are weak minded and are driven into madness. This is the meaning of charismatic prophesying in 1 Cor 11:5 where women or homosexual males sought to bind the spirit and flesh through homosexuality.
Those who claim to be PROPHETS or APOSTLES have lost the love for the truth. Therefore, God sends them STRONG DELUSIONS so that they become BUFFOONS. This is the meaning of God pouring out His wrath which makes them often SPEAK IN TONGUES (same as the Nachash or serpent or musical enchanter in the garden of Eden."
They ALWAY turn back to the ancient perverted religions.
In Ancient Babylon:
Inanna, like Istar the mother/bride of Tammuz worshiped by the women in the Jerusalem temple, got Ea drunk and forced him to give her the ME which were supernatual gifts. Perverted sexuality and instrumental music were two prized gifts:
The ME, Inanna - Ea - Gift of Wisdom and Music
- He gave me the art of lovemaking.
- He gave me the art of kissing the phallus.
- He gave me the art of prostitution.
- He gave me the resounding musical instrument.
- He gave me the art of song.
- He gave me the art of the elder.
- He gave me the kindling of strife
In most paganism priests, soothsayers, singers, musicians and male and female prostitutes had equal footing:
"According to the system which Nimrod was the grand instrument in introducing, men were led to believe
that a real spiritual change of heart was unnecessary, and that so far as change was needful,
they could be regenerated by mere external means.
"Looking at the subject in the light of the Bacchanalian orgies (Read Ephesus and Corinth), which, as the reader has seen, commemorated the history of Nimrod, it is evident that
he led mankind to seek their chief good in sensual enjoyment,
and showed them how they might enjoy the pleasures of sin, without any fear of the wrath of a holy God. (Voodoo, Rock, Boogie Woogie becomes Contemporary Christian Music)
"In his various expeditions he was always accompanied by troops of women; and by music and song, and games (ritual drama) and revelries, and everything that could please the natural hearts,
he commended himself to the good graces of mankind." (Hislop, Alexander, The Two Babylons, p. 55, Loizeaux Brothers)
Sure enough, it rains the the non-productive member becomes a prophet. It isn't too long before he turns from servant to master. "If you want your pigs to be born alive you had better pay me." Or, "I can solve your marriage problems if you attend my church."
"Awed by the mysteries of his own spirit (See 1 Cor 14) no less than by those of nature, primitive man was likely to attribute to divine influence any abnormal emotional state, whether above or below the usual level. Medicine men customarily went into states of trance
in which they were believed to be in communication with the gods,
and many tribes supposed lunatics and sexual deviants to be divinely possessed.
"In most early societies, moreover, men evolved techniques for deliberately inducing the abnormal forms of consciousness in which they supposed themselves to achieve union with divine power, sometimes by the use of drugs and other physiological stimuli,
sometimes by hypnotic dances and music.
The wild utterances (speaking in tongues) to which they gave vent on such occasions were regarded as the words of a god and were interpreted as divine commands or predictions of future events." (Parkes, H.B., Gods and Men, p. 32-33).
"Ephesus was famous for its shrine of Diana, where thousands of sacred prostitutes
believed fornication brought believers into contact with deity in much the same way the Gnostics used authentia (authority)
to bind the flesh and the divine together. When these women converted to Christianity they had to unlearn these pagan practices.
'Virtually without exception, female teachers among the Greeks were courtesans, such as Aspasia, who numbered Socrates and Pericles among her students. Active in every major school of philosophy,
these hetairai made it evident in the course of their lectures that they were available afterwards for a second occupation.
But the Bible teaches that to seduce men in such a manner was indeed to lead them to slaughter and the halls of death (cf. Prov. 2:18; 5:5; 6:27; 9:18).
The verb authentein is thus peculiarly apt to describe both the erotic and murderous." (Trombley, Who Says Women Can't Teach, p. 177).
You see! The Shelly York thesis is that you must WORK OUT your salvation or your culture through a PARTNERSHIP: a divine-human combine! We must permit homosexuals and women into leadership by ASSISTING God in comming up with some NEW TRUTH. But, WHO is going to reveal the truth. I have the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of Sonship and the Spirit of the Father dwelling in my SPIRIT by faith. SINCE faith comes by hearing, what dwells in MY spirit HONORS Lord Jesus Christ and his apostles by believing WHAT I READ. How can Shelly and York gain the FAITH that what they PROPOSE to God is going to be ACCEPTED by God so that we can MAKE GOD up to date?
You may remember that Jesus never said "I will build my church." What He said was "I will build my SYNAGOGUE." Religion has almost always been the arena for women and always turns to charismatic or musical efforts to gain SECURITY in an insecure world. The Synagogue "had no women leaders" and it "had no praise service" becase it was a SCHOOL. Its primary emphasis was training up young boys to be MEN. The only way that can happen is if they have MASCULINE teachers and role models. Don't you suspect that violating this had BREED the new swarm of homosexuals?
Therefore, it was the LAW that women neither served in the sacrificial system nor in the synagogues. Homosexuality has good reason to exist because CONTRARY to Paul our children are under the domination of women from cradle to grave. The once-christian universities are preparing young girls to be CHILDREN'S MINISTERS. Even CAMPUS GROUPS are under women. No wonder that with the rise of women or effeminate males we have seen the rise of musical or charismatic "rituals" which are not related to WORSHIP.
Paul addressed the LAW and the nature of women (or effeminate males) which made them unfit to be
Rubel Shelly and John York: John: Male and female in the Hellenistic world of the first century has both similarities to and differences from our own time. The question is, how do we hear the texts --
specifically the words written by Paul to the Corinthians and his words written to Timothy and the church in Ephesus? Do we assume Paul is issuing unilateral rules that have no specific relationship to the cultural setting of people in Corinth and Ephesus?
Carrol D. Osburn, ACU: "There is major disagreement on whether one should use the Bible to undergird doctrines in a "proof-texting way,
or whether one should allow doctrine to emerge from understanding texts in their literary and historical contexts. Certainly these differing views of Scripture lie behind differing views of women in the church" (p. 90)
The FEMALES or totally perverted or drunk males were the CULTURAL LEADERS of the time of Christ. If Paul had wanted to be as much like the world as possible to ATTRACT the world then he knew that FEMALES exercising authority (authentia: erotic and murderous) would fill up the new "venue for Rock and Roll" by the next Sunday.
There is NO ROLE for a PERFORMANCE preacher in the local congregation. The leader led DIALOG of that which had been taught and then read. Women doing rhetorical battle with males would surely destroy the unity of the church. Female leaders will assuredly EJECT the owners of the property as they will flee. The role was TEACHING and Paul, homophobic or sexist or not, said what CANNOT be mistaken. So Paul didn't consider local CULTURE and he spoke to use as well where culture MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. In their culture one who jumped off a tall building died: Our culture does not EXEMPT.
Again: John: "Do we assume Paul is issuing unilateral rules that have no specific relationship to the cultural setting of people in Corinth and Ephesus."
Since the CORE TARGET is women's role in the churches, the answer is YES. If Paul's absolute COMMANDS about women's roll and if Paul has not pinpointed a certain church then God IS THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION:
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints 1 Cor 14:33
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1 Cor 14:34
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1 Cor 14:35
What came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 1 Cor 14:36
It simply does not matter because the church assembled is always defined by a word meaning "synagogue." God had ordained priests (males) to teach the people. The instructors of the church was to be ELDERS (not just "shepherds" to the dominant minister). He had explicit instructions to "teach that which has been taught" and to "rebuke those who opposed it." It appears that women were the ones likely to hop up and ask questions or challenge the MALE ANER ELDER PASTOR- TEACHER.
Paul told Timothy to give attendance (a worship word) to the public reading of the Word, to exhorting people to obey that passage and to explain any doctrinal teaching contained. The college professor does not need challenges while he is reading the text.
The first example of LAW was when Eve became the teacher of Adam. Lucifer came into the garden of Eden with wind, string and percussion instruments. She/he "wholly seduced" Eve as Paul defines as fornication PRIOR to Adam but Adam went willingly. The first sin is defined in ancient documents as SODOMY. The word SERPENT is a word which universally pointed to a MUSICAL ENCHANTER as the Nagas or Serpent Adepts. Therefore, it was the CREATED NATURE which regulated dominant females as well as homosexuals:
And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Gen 3:14
Max Lucado hold out hope for LUCIFER! Do you suppose that our CULTURE permits Lucifer (Zoe or the harp-playing prostitute) to get into authority in our churches so he can TRAFFICK with books and CDs retailing the FREE WORD (Isa 55)? Probably written and composed at the expense of POOR WIDOWS.
And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Gen 3:13
Nasha (h5377) naw-shaw'; a prim. root; to lead astray, i. e. (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce: - beguile, deceive, * greatly, * utterly.
The battle would be between the male seed of Eve and Satan. This means that if the church is organized as a school of hard discipline it would be SHAMEFUL to put the woman out front to take the stings of Satan:
Adam sinned but he WAS NOT deluded:
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen 3:16
A later passage shows that the danger is that sin is like a crouching lion just waiting to pounce. Therefore, God said that the Male seed (and seeds) of Eve should guard the guate.
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Ge.4:7
Paul referenced the CREATIVE ORDER which was subverted. If Paul is wrong then Paul was NOT INSPIRED and it would not be any worse if he was homophobic or culturally deprived.
Any way you cut it, the inspiration of the text is denied.
Miriam led the women out with instrumental music in the sense of "escaping" the reading or reciting the SONG OF MOSES. Women were the downfall of Israel. It is thought that she is the PROTYPICAL USURPING WOMAN Paul had in mind.
Like Rubel Shelly and John York she claimed that God spoke through her just because she was a musical prophetess or more likely a prophetess of Hathor and the golden calf.
Remember that Jesus said that the Jewish clergy were sons of their father the DEVIL because "they speak on their own." False prophets ALWAYS speak on their own.
"Now, son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people who prophesy (speak or sing) out of their own imagination. Prophesy against them Ezek 13:17
and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the women who sew magic charms on all their wrists and make veils of various lengths for their heads in order to ensnare people. Will you ensnare the lives of my people but preserve your own? Ezek 13:18
And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies? Eze 13:19
"Ezekiel in describing the necromantic ritual of the witches, says they fastened 'magic bands' (kesatot) on their wrists and with them 'trapped souls like birds' (Ezekiel 13:20). This rare word is related to the Sumerian KI-ShU, meaning some kind of magical imprisonment, but we have to look to Greek for its precise significance. In the form kiste, Latin cista, it appears as a container used in certain mystery rituals of the Dionysiac cult, supposedly for the carrying of secret implements. In fact, wherever the cista is graphically represented it is shown as a basket from which a snake is emerging.
Thus on sarcophagi inscribed with Bacchic scenes, the cista is shown being kicked open by Pan and the snake raising itself from the half-opened lid. The snake is an important feature of the Dionysiac cult and imagery.
The Maenads of Euripides' Bacchae have serpents entwined in their hair and round their limbs, and the snake was the particular emblem of the Phyrigian Sabazios (Sabadius) with whom Dionysos is identified." - John M. Allegro, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
"To achieve the ecstatic state, in which the participants, in their accompanying dancing, were believed to have been seized by the hand of Yahweh, the God of Israel, as in the case of Saul, the 11th-century-bc king of Israel.
The Pythia (priestess) of the Greek oracle at Delphi often went into an ecstatic state during which she uttered sounds revealed to her by the python (the snake, the symbol of resurrection), after drinking water from a certain spring.
Her "words" were then interpreted by a priest to help a suppliant find a way to avoid calamities, especially death. In primitive religions, ecstasy was a technique highly developed by shamans, religious personages with healing and psychic-transformation powers, in their "soul," or "spirit," flights. (See Delphic oracle.) "ecstasy" Encyclopædia Britannica Online.
Prophesying among the women and bands of effeminate musicians was singing and playing instruments. The women and effeminate males prophesied out of their own IMAGINATION. They probably thought that they had the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ in them.
Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
"Ministrels" or pipers were almost always flute-girls. Jesus cast them out more or less violently as one casts out dung. Interestingly, in Athens the same city officials who governed the flute-girls who were prostitutes also regulated the DUNG HEAP.
The word translated LUCIFER (the harp-playing prostitute as the king of Tyre) is derived from a similar word for PRAISE.
Rubel Shelly and John York: John: Or do we read these texts in terms of Paul seeking to insure that the people of Corinth and Ephesus are not prevented from seeing Jesus because males and females in the church are behaving in bizarre ways?
And if indeed the latter is true (i.e., that these texts were intended to illustrate how first-century Christians should behave in ways that would not compromise their witness to world),
what happens today when in our cultural context our worship assemblies are experienced as male-only events?
John Waddey Reviewing Carrol D. Osburn, ACU: "He inadvertently gives us an insight into the methodology of determined feminists. We do well to heed this warning for it is also the strategy of the promoters of change:
"Feminist hermeneutics stands over against patriarchal hermeneutics"
its goal achieved
"by small, often unnoticed acts of subversion. Numerous such incremental changes, like erosion, will eventually bring down the fortress " (emphasis mine jhw) ( p. 32).
He concedes: "Jesus did not overthrow hierarchalism" (p. 260).
But, of course, Jesus didn't live in OUR CULTURE. Carrol D. Osburn castigates Jesus and Paul for not overthrowing hierarchalism (Patriarchalism?) for not permitting FEMINIST hermeneutics.
But Osburn gloats that feminist hermeneutics TRUMPS the cultural views of Jesus. Therefore, the
That was THE REASON Jesus nor Paul permitted female leadership: then and now when feminist or effeminate males take over, the ancient PAGANISM of wine, women and song prevails as MAJOR TOOLS of destroying patriarchal or masculine leadership. Women challenged by Paul were devoted to charismatic ecstasy and Carrol D. Osburn shows his hand and that of ACU:
Carrol D. Osburn: On pages 14-15: "With so many questions flying around and so much uncertainty being expressed in various quarters, what an opportunity for the various faculties of our Christian colleges and universities to help shape the future! These are the best of times to be involved in Christian education!
If we are to have a truly significant impact upon the national and international scene,
faculties of religion must play leading prophetic roles in channeling and facilitating whatever changes loom ahead.
Carrol D. Osburn: p. 14-15 An outdated curriculum from a sectarian past that placed emphasis upon transmitting doctrinaire positions will not suffice if we would engage convincingly the larger arenas of current religious thought. É
Our graduate programs must train students how to think, to investigate the biblical text afresh, to feel the pulse of the world around them, to sense where things ought to go, and provide the kind of experiences that will enable servants to go out into churches and communities and provide direction. Hall
Of course, we just noted that it is the once-Christian universities which are ACTIVELY PROMOTING the changes based on FEMINIST THEOLOGY. The typical method of Doctors of the Law fired by Jesus was:
We will break the church for a fee.
Then we will FIX it for EXTORTION.
They didn't assemble TO SEE JESUS. They assembled as a school of the Bible. Paul's only worship word for what he called the assembly (synagogue) was to GIVE HEED to Christ by "giving attendance to the public reading of the Word, to exhortion (of that read) and to doctrine (contained in that read).
Because worship is SCHOOL and giving HEED there are two classed required: a teacher and students. Most males and women EXPERIENCE the event by giving heed to the Words of Christ. If they have some lust to STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE then they assuredly have no intention of worshiping God but of BEING WORSHIPPED.
We need to state up front that Paul did not define "worship" as Rubel defines "worship." There was no LADED BURDEN of plant and staff to totally subvert the church as a SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible.
Shelly and York make a radical difference between HOMOSEXUALITY and WOMEN LEADERS. However, Paul appealed both to the obvious differences between the temperment and created order of women. Paul knew that in the Bible and all secular history women or effeminate males turn to "religious rituals" including turning form "a linear sequential" or rational, Word focus to actions of the body, music, dancing and seeking to ASCEND up to God to "know" Him intimately.
NO ONE is going to "worship God" while GIVING HEED to the preacher who DOES NOT give heed to the Word of God. Jesus was faithful and our APPROVED EXAMPLE because He spoke only what He heard from the Father who dwelled within. Church was not MUSICAL AND RHETORICAL SHOW AND TELL so no one should feel LEFT OUT as long as someone (Please, God) just stands up and "gives attention to the reading of the Word." This was SUPPOSED to be the vocational elders whose ABSOLUTE MANDATE was to "teach that which HAS BEEN TAUGHT."
Christianity is built on the Word of God: when that dies then it is no longer CHRISTIAN. And the Greek world defined rhetoricians, sOPHISts, singers and musicians as belonging to the SECT of the Hypocrites. When they no longer spoke the message as a HERALD they were all identified as PARASITES.
HOW can a man be a Christian who DOES NOT believe the Bible but gets PAID by those who BELIEVE the Bible. Isn't this the lowest level of hypocracty? Aren't such men PARASITES?
Sure, almost no one is CONVERTED by preaching which is the least effective way of teaching known to the human race?
LIKEWISE, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 1Pe 3:1
While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 1Pe 3:2
Whose adorning (worldly decoration) let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting (to enchant often with music) the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel (official robes or vesture) ; 1Pe 3:3
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 1 Peter 3:4
Rubel Shelly and John York: Rubel: I'm not happy with where this sermon series has ended. There are too many unanswered questions! But perhaps that's why I am happy with where it has ended.
We are able to claim that we are continuous with the very first Christians who were trying to figure things out -- under the guidance of the Holy Spirit who tabernacled in them -- as they went along!
FULL DEITY dwelled in Jesus Christ. All authority of Father, Son and Spirit was vested under ONE NAME. That name was Jesus, Joshua or Jehovah- Saves.
Until The GA, H. Leo Boles and popularized by Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly NO ONE IN HISTORY saw the Godhead as a FAMILY OF GODS with three separated, free standing committee of Gods. No one who used the term TRINITY ever saw God as being separated.
For instance, if a man is separated from his spirit then he is DEAD. Paul said that the Holy Spirit was to God what our spirit is to us. We know that we are not triplets. Paul went on to equate the Holy Spirit to the MIND OF CHRIST.
Therefore, those looking for a separated Holy Spirit after repudiating the OLD Bible which God wrote to fit THAT culture, they are EVIDENTIALLY under the control of an evil spirit. The spirit in the Greek world, Hebrew scripture and the New Testament means the "mental disposition of one's mind or spirit" unless you CLAIM to be the SECOND INCARNATION OF GOD.
Jesus, as God Incarnate, delivered His word and it was counter cultural. If Jesus has to reveal the NEW, post modern TRUTH then we deny that Christ fully came in the flesh. The INCARNATIONAL theories of Lucado and Shelly seem to DENY that Jesus was the FULL GODHEAD and therefore NOT LIKELY to deliver situational truth which lasted UNTIL RUBEL SHELLY'S REIGN.
It is a fact that Jesus said that THOSE WHO SPEAK ON THEIR OWN have the devil for their father.
Rubel Shelly and John York: John: Jesus came to model a life of love and service, to model the mystery of human and divine in the flesh. In his death and resurrection and exaltation he created a vision and pathway for us so we could share in those same realities.
No, Jesus came to GIVE LIFE through his shed blood. Mark recalls the prophecy of John the Baptist and Jesus WASHING as with FULLER'S SOAP and relates that to baptism as the means of bestowing life.
Indwelled and empowered by the Spirit, we have been invited to serve one another and the world as the embodied Christ. While we live in the midst of this ongoing transformation, we will not see everything alike. But we can continue to see Jesus.
Perhaps with that focus and his lenses of love we can enact his kingdom promises, even when we faithfully and respectfully disagree about what it means to be Jesus in our time, in our world.
Like Peep stone Joe Smith, Rubel Shelly claims NEW GLASSES to get a NEW VISION for the church. He further claims that we should hear AUDIBLY the voice of God.
In demanding a direct indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a one-third god yet the only One competent for this the "dispensation of the Holy Spirit," the Word is always diminished. However, in the following table it is clear that to blaspheme the Spirit is to blaspheme the Words of Jesus because these Words are, to us, His Mind or His Spirit
The Shelly Core gospel will not do: it leaves only seven facts ABOUT jesus which are worthy of defending. However, Jesus said that as CHRIST or the WORD, He personally left His majesty as GOD to come and do more than just be a pattern. If Rubel Shelly believed that he would be out on the mission field teaching the Word "as it has been taught" and not working as a rhetorician or sOPHISts trying with all of his heart to destroy the Word as inspired. Paul in Hebrews says that those who have TASTED the Word and then rejected it have committed THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN because it is blasphemy of the SPIRIT which Jesus incarnated in His Words.
- Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
- And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
- And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Jn 12:47
- but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Mt 12:31
- but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Mt 12:32
- --It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Jn 6:63
- He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn 12:48
- --For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. Jn 12:49 (This sending Father never left Him)
One has doubts that HUMANS who work so frantically to DISCREDIT the Biblical Text written BY GOD without human help is going to be called on as God's HUMAN HELPER to write NEW TRUTH to replace the total BIBLE which got sucked into a Black hole leaving us with NO TRUTH except what we PURCHASE at a price too high from Phd being trained by schools like ACU to be "prophetic and chanellers to facilitate the church into MAKING NEW CHANGES."
The Bible has been hammered before and we doubt that philosophers are going to make a dent in it this time. I'll just stick to the OLDEN, OUTDATED Bible if that is ok. Work out your salvation does not mean that YOU, knowing all about your culture must work in partnership to CHANGE THE LAWS.
Counter added 11/12/04 1141